From protégé to pioneer

Samantha Hawkins: Welcome to today's episode of Praemium Advice Leaders podcast. My name's Samantha Hawkins and I'm the general manager here at Praemium in the distribution team.

Today, I'm delighted to be hosting a conversation on some key themes for this year's International Women's Day, and I'm really pleased that we've got two industries leading women with us today, Siobhan Blewitt, CEO and founder of Frais Capital, and Jaimee Desai, partner, and portfolio manager at Sempre Investment Managers.

Prior to founding Frais Capital, Siobhan was a founding partner at Stellan Capital, an executive director of Morgan Stanley. She holds a Bachelor of Economics, a graduate diploma in Applied Finance and a master’s in applied finance. Siobhan is currently on the Finance Committee for a number of charities and is a senior mentor for women in banking and finance, Australia’s Mentoring for Success program.

Jaimee Desai is a founding partner at SEMPRA Investment Managers and has an extensive experience providing tailored wealth management solutions for high-net-worth families both here in Australia and overseas. Jaimee sits on the board of a company called Pathify, which is a privately owned ed-tech company, and prior to Sempre, Jaimee was in various positions in retail banking, investment management and venture capital. Jaimee holds a Bachelor of International Business in Corporate Finance and Business Law.

Thanks for joining us today. We really appreciate you taking the time out of your day to spend some time with us talking about a pretty important topic, we think. The theme for this year's International Women's Day is inspiring inclusion, and it presents a fantastic opportunity for us to firstly celebrate, the achievements of women in our industry which has, I think, come a long way over the years that I've been involved and I'm sure you feel the same, but also then raise awareness against the bias that still exists, and then educate on how we can be more inclusive, not only for women but that we can be more inclusive as an industry. So if we start off with that theme of inspiring inclusion, I think the best place to start is maybe thinking about the inspiration that brought you into financial services. We might get you to both run through a little bit of a background on your journey into financial services what brought you into this industry, this profession, and there may be specifically some of the successes and challenges you faced along the way, particularly both being business owners. I'm sure there's some unique challenges and successes that that brings along the way. So maybe I'll start with you, Siobhan, if you can go first and give us a bit of a background, sure Well thank you for the opportunity.

Siobhan Blewitt: This is a great fun time. Year 10 for me and family circumstances meant that I needed to figure out pretty quickly what I was going to do with my life, and I happened upon the Wall Street movie.

Jaimee Desai: Oh, wow.

Siobhan Blewitt: It's still about Gordon Gecko and it was about the markets, it was about data, it was about trading, and I was absolutely hooked and so fast forward. It was figure out a way to be a stockbroker. That was the job for me, so it was find an opportunity, get on the trading desk, learn about it, be a desk assistant and progress from there to running my own business. So, fundamentally, it's about finding people who can open the doors. Who's going to do it for you?

Samantha Hawkins: Yeah, because would you have been one of the few women on the desk?

Siobhan Blewitt: At that time yes. I was really lucky too. I took about six months to get work experience, so it was once a week ringing Mr Chisholm at a particular stockbroker. I would say have you seen my CV? Would you consider some work experience? Because a friend had said to me you need to do that and eventually, he said yes. And the opportunity was to work in the stockbroking office for one week in the library filing oh wow, not exactly what you had to submit. I stood and stamped prospectuses for that whole week, but I could see over there the opportunity, the hum, the buzz of what was going on and that cemented for me stockbroking. The challenge was to actually get on the trading desk because there was one woman in a sea of men, and it just so happened that I was able to get work experience with her father and they opened the doors for me. And it was pull up a chair, be quiet, learn, don't say a word, carry the bag, do the filing. My job for about a year was to move clients' cars in Collins Street to make sure that they didn't get a parking fine. Very important, I could claim the dry cleaning, but actually it was about learning. It was learning about how to read people, about how to understand what was going on in the markets. And the key messages. Find an advocate, find someone who can open the door for you, because that was fundamental. Without that opportunity, I wouldn't be here today.

Samantha Hawkins: I think something that strikes me from that and I don't want to generalise here, but I think we need is patience. Something that you showed was a great deal of patience in sitting through those roles that weren't particularly challenging or interesting and doing those sorts of menial tasks but learning along the way and having that patience to stay the course, to get to where you want it to be. So, I think it's something everybody could sort of learn from that.  Jaimee, what about you? Where did you start and what led you into financial sciences?

Jaimee Desai: Mine's a little bit non-traditional. So, I've always been a retail banker, loved retail banking and always saw a future in retail banking. And, similar to yourself, Siobhan, I had an advocate, we had a mutual client, and he sort of popped up and said if you ever thought about wealth management and I said, oh, I don't know. I don't even know what that is. I never even knew what a stock was, share markets and asset allocation and all that sort of stuff I never knew about. So, I took the plunge with some amazing advocates, and they fostered an environment for me to learn and learn on the job, which was fantastic. And retrospectively I think all the things I enjoyed of retail banking have sort of come over to wealth management as well. Clients, the client journey, taking them on their financial journey, which is all part of all aspects of banking, which has been fantastic. And I think the challenges and successes for myself and our businesses are one and the same. I think when you move from a big brand, that's always a challenge, but the success and it's so incredible and humbling is when clients move over to you, for you and for your service. I think that's incredible.

Samantha Hawkins: Yes, extremely rewarding. I was an adviser prior to joining Praemium. I was an adviser for a long time and that's the thing I probably miss the most. I think it's very rewarding working with clients and knowing that you're making an impact and giving them a peace of mind and a sense of confidence about their financial position. And every aspect of it too, from their children to estates.

Siobhan Blewitt: That is the fundamental reason to get up and to know that we're helping people Doing something useful, the sense of relief that I say people have when they're able to talk through an issue, work out the plan and then be able to put into action and have someone next to them to move with them through that Not just here. Is a document now in place? What do I do? How do I? It's almost I talk about our key competitor. Is the client doing nothing? because they're so overwhelmed with the choice. So, I say part of our role is to advocate for clients and to help them narrow down the information. What are the choices? Because they're really vast and that can be overwhelming. Oh, absolutely, and the easy point can be do nothing.

Samantha Hawkins: Apart from advocates you've had along the way, or it may be including what are some other key successes that you've had in building your career, Siobhan. What else would you say has been some of the key points?

Siobhan: I think the one fundamental point was looking around the dealing room and seeing that the women made the cups of tea and did the filing, and the men were the stockbrokers of the day. To shift from girl assistant to adviser, it was go and do more study and fund it yourself and do it outside of work hours. And that was a Master of Finance at Melbourne Uni which helped me transition from the assistant to the adviser. It was probably at that point that I made partner until I invested in my own personal resources over and above the day job. I was still the assistant. But I think was probably a fundamental shift in how my boss, my mentor, my peers saw me and then clients saw me, because there was ever a hello. Mrs Blogs, may I speak to Mr Fabulous? And my job was to transfer the call early on. So, the transition was go on and do more study, invest in it yourself and do not wait for the firm to fund it. I would say I want to do that AICD course or what have you. The firm is talking about funding it If you can fund it yourself. And that was hard. That took a couple of years of night study, and it cost a lot of money. At the time I was earning $26,000 a year and I think the course cost $20,000. It was a big number, and it was a big investment, but that was a fundamental shift in investing in my own capital.

Jaimee Desai: Do you also think it just built your confidence internally to go,  I can walk in this room, and I deserve that job.

Siobhan Blewitt: Definitely, and a framework for thinking critically. So, the independent thoughts around are this research right doesn't make sense? Do I have a framework for decision making? And with that it definitely helped with confidence. But it was off your own bat. Go and do more study If you can try and find a way through it, because everyone at that level is quality. It's about how do you do for an individual yourself.

Samantha Hawkins: Wwould you agree?

Jaimee Desai: I would, absolutely 100% agree. I did my MBA, and I did it off the back of my own will. I guess you always expect not expect that's the wrong term. You always want your employer to help you with that sort of journey for you, but it just doesn't happen. You have to invest in yourself for other people to realise that you're worth it. You can't expect other people to think that you deserve the job if you don't believe you deserve the job or put the money, effort, and time into doing it. So I completely agree and for me personally, that's why I asked you the question, Siobhan, I think it helped me gain some confidence in the industry and that I had a voice in the industry.

Samantha Hawkins: Having been in industry for a few years ourselves me even longer than others. We're seeing some really fantastic women start to progress and get recognition and prominence. More recent years, definitely, I've seen a big uplift.

I was at the FAAA Congress last year with Sasha Burkhart, who won Advisor of the Year. I was on a panel with her last week at a conference on Women in Finance and one thing she said that struck me was that what stood out for her is that she won Advisor of the Year, not the female advisor of the year there wasn't a separate category anymore. So that is such a positive that maybe we have come further in inclusion and diversity and we are further along that path than what we thought or what we hoped. So, having said that, women are still very much underrepresented in our profession, and you can certainly see that when you go to an industry event.

It's much changed since I started, but women are still underrepresented overall. Do you think, Jaimee, there's anything that can be done, either at a company level or industry level, that could encourage more women to enter our profession? And advice specifically.

Jaimee Desai: Yeah, I think this is a really good question, because I think we need to take a step back and understand why women are underrepresented in the first place. Is it because we're not doing a great job at showing pathways into the industry for females or young women? Is it that people don't, or women don't, know the roles that are available in our industry? Or is it because we have an image problem and I truly believe that perception of our industry is really lagging reality? I think we could do with some better PR. I don't think the image of the Wolf of Wall Street or what Siobhan went through you know not long ago, but long enough ago is reality now. I think there's, of course, exceptions, of course there will always be exceptions, but I think no matter how much revenue you write now, I think poor behaviour is not tolerated. So, I think we have an image problem, especially for younger women. Or if you watch the movies that you were mentioning before and the Wolf of Wall Street, etc.

I also find it quite baffling, because to be a good advisor, you need some soft skills and generally the skills that you need, research has shown that women are better at it. So, I think we do have an image problem. I think we're doing better in terms of viewing what you just said, Sam. I think when young girls can see, they can do, and so when you see more female advisors, when you see more female fund managers, young women can go. I can do that, or I can find a pathway to get there. It's actually manageable or doable. In terms of initiatives, I think it has to be backed by actionable, measurable things. I think we can make lots of platitudes and talk about getting more women into our industry, but I think we need to do better at measuring it and companies need to have initiatives that are backed up. They're not just saying that on International Women's Day and then you forget about it.

Samantha Hawkins: We continue to monitor it, 100%. There's a lot of work to be done and I agree, I think that the image doesn't match certainly my experience and the advisers that I work with. There's a lot of catching up to do.

Siobhan Blewitt: You raised the point about seeing the example of success, and I was lucky enough to see my boss at the time go on maternity leave. So, she was working for her father, and he was a real trailblazer. Those two as a team showed me as a young woman that it was possible in a stockbroking office to have something called a baby. And she worked from home, well before we had any connection, it was bringing the orders through. It was my job in the office to look after her needs as the assistant, and I learned a huge amount. It was the best opportunity. But seeing also, even how do you manage care for the children? So, in a stockbroking office, it is all about the client and the data and the trades of the day how do you manage behind the scenes? Well, nobody wants to hear about that. You have to do that in a seamless, quiet way, and to see the example of what that looked like was something that I hadn't ever considered before. But the lived experience of that meant that I could think right when, if I want to do that, this is how it's going to work, we're going to be okay, exactly.

It's still we need to see it; you've got to see the example. And if you don't see it, in most instances you don't think it's possible.

Samantha Hawkins: Yes not many people can be that first person to show everybody else.

We mentioned in your bio, Siobhan, that you are involved in mentoring, and so that's obviously something that you find great value in, I'm sure, great reward in. So, what do you think the role that mentorship and networking can play in fostering inclusion in the workplace and in our industries, and what sort of experience have you had? Have you got any specific stories you could recall for us?

Siobhan Blewitt: This is the gold. This is the gold. The message is to have a network that you foster outside of your immediate work environment. We typically don't do that because we're busy working, we're busy looking after the clients. When you walk out the door, you'll have other lives. The message is you have to promulgate that network, and mentoring is an opportunity to do that and to be aware that. Well, where do you start? How do you actually, as a young woman, approach this? The Women in Banking Finance Network I've found to be wonderful because it actually connected me with people we work in Collins Street, we've never come across each other before, because we're all busy doing.

That opportunity to see and check out of the immediate work circle was really helpful, and I think that initiative is something that should be absolutely reminded and encouraged, because the reality is that we can get really focused on the task, see tasks, do tasks, see tasks. Step back and say, within the work environment, who has knowledge that I want to learn from, who has power that I could benefit from? Let's say what it is and learn from them. So, I think that the mentoring program provided me with the message, and it still does today about how important it is to network, how important it is not only in your business, but outside of your business. Keep talking, because you never know when you're going to need to pick up the phone and say how do I do this? Have you come across that? What does that look like? That is everything. Do not let the networks fall away or, if you don't have them, start talking, start a conversation, yeah.

Samantha Hawkins: Both of you have mentioned in your intro that you both had advocates throughout your career, and particularly at the start, Jaimee. If I can refer to you about your experience in that area, as far as the people that have been advocates for you and just generally supporting the cause of inclusion of women, what sort of have you come across in your experience where you've seen advocates supporting that cause of inclusion of women.

Jaimee Desai: I think, as a general starting point, is to be included in a conversation, to be included in decision making,  recommended for a position or a promotion. I'm the product of an advocate to include women in wealth management. So I went from retail banking to wealth management on the sponsorship of my now business partner and so I started in quite a junior role as an associate and even when I was in that role with that title, I was able to be part of strategic decisions, client meetings, just at the table, listening, which helps build your confidence, build your skills to make decisions as a business owner. Now I think that's really important and building knowledge and confidence creates a better advisor for everybody, for client and company.

Samantha Hawkins:. What, in your experience, can you learn, or could you share with us about not only being financial services professionals, but starting your own businesses, the challenges and the successes that you had along the way?

Siobhan Blewitt: This is the fun. And the work. This is a pile of work, and this is actually having to throw away a safety net that is a regular income and this is truly backing yourself to say to the clients yes, we have a business that we're putting together. Come, follow us. We haven't done this before, but we've got good people around us now. That is something that is actually terrifying but exhilarating at the same time. Knowing how the business fits together is something that I think makes me a better advisor and a better businessperson. So, with that, it takes a whole lot of guts, a whole lot of resilience, and you've got to love what you do yes, always You've got to care about people, and you've got to absolutely get a thrill out of the problem solving, yeah. So, the challenge then becomes who do you phone? There are no such thing as corporate services. Back in the day, you could ring someone, and they would help you. My IT support. There is none.

So, you have to build that support network, and if there's something that I find the most important now, it's the network of good people to sing. How do I do this? How do you do it? That makes me a better advisor. The challenge is to know who to listen to. Everyone's got an opinion, yes, everyone's got a handy hint, and they're quite quick to see you fail.

Samantha Hawkins: It's a good point yeah.

Siobhan Blewit. It is. That's very difficult. Don't know whether I'll be doing that. Don't know about that. That's very hard. Too much negativity. Block it out. Back yourself.

Jaimee Desai: Look, I'm a bit similar to yourself, Siobhan. I think when you leave the comfort of a job and you go out on your own, you have to love what you do, because there's going to be a lot of trying times on the business side. You know accounting and just running a business. So, I think you need to love what you do and, as I mentioned before, it's so humbling when clients come with you from a big brand. I think that empowers you. It emboldens you to keep doing what you're doing. I also think having a good network, because when you move from a big brand or a big organization, you have to have those networks. You have to have a sense check Is this investment good? What am I missing? You have to have your trusted advisors around you, who is your client's trusted advisor? I think that's really important. I think some of the challenges are always being a smaller business, but I think that's also something that's helpful for clients. You can be nimble, you can be fast, and you know things that you can't do at a big organization you can do at a smaller one for your clients and ultimately, most of my clients or our clients are business owners or ex-business owners, and so you get a sense of how they created their wealth through you being a business owner.

Samantha Hawkins: Yeah, so it sounds like you've both learned a great deal from running your own businesses and starting your own business and it’s obviously, it's rewarding. Yep, it's challenging but it's paying off and your clients are benefiting from that, and it sounds like networking with the right people is even more important.

Samantha Hawkins: Looking at women in leadership roles in financial services and, I suppose, just generally in our community, do you think that the narrative has changed over the years that you've been involved in financial services? And then, what do you think that the industry needs to do to attract and retain and probably retain is the important you know talk about, you know having families and so on support and retain those that talent within our industry.

Siobhan Blewit: Let's start. Let's start at the end of support and retain. I think that it is partnerships with universities for students to come in and intern. How do you know what this job is unless you have tried it? Most of the students that I work with all come in the door saying we want to be investment bankers. We're interested in this environment. What does this look like when I grow up? I want to be an investment banker, Watching too many shows on TV. Perception of what it looks like.

Provide the training. I think the challenge is to just make sure that they can see what this looks like and provide appropriate scaffolding training so they can see themselves progressing and not just being stale in a role because they're really good in that particular role and they won't progress because the senior management don't want to have to think about replacing them. So that's one point that I've raised. What do you think, Jaimee?

Jaimee  Desai: I would have to say I think partnerships with universities and higher education. I think that goes back to my original question, Sam, of how we get women into the industry. I think it's really difficult when you don't know what you don't know and it's not really accessible, you can go do a Bachelor of Commerce, that's fine. All you learn about is investment banking, mergers and acquisitions or stockbroking, all the sort of spicier, sexier names of our industry. But, like you said, you don't know unless you come in and do, and I think that's really important.

Siobhan Blewitt: We've got a really strong role in that regard to provide that opportunity and with it the students are stunning, they're bright, they're interested, they're engaged, they're so tech savvy and it's a real energy boost to have them around is what I find.

I think it's also exciting for the next gen of advice, like advisory and advice, because it's going to look different. It's going to look different to what we provide our clients today. I think that's exciting, yeah, yeah,

Jaimee Desai: I think that before accounting firms do a great job with the students, I think we need to do better as an industry. I think the big banks do a good job, but they don't go micro into financial advice or stockbroking or whatever it may be.

Siobhan Blewitt: The other point, too, is thinking about how we are positioning advice for women and the idea of the rise of the Finfluencer without a license, TikTok and we know we can see research shows Gen Z is seeking financial advice from TikTok. The attention span is about two seconds. Traditionally, wealth advising and banking businesses shy away from any sort of education or advice in that space because it's seen as dangerous and new and uncontrolled. The message is that, instead of it being hashtag girls are us. It could be much more sophisticated.

We don't see enough of the, let's say, Janet Yellens or Ursula von der Leyens here. There is a dearth of quality and they're around. I agree, it's just that we're not used to engaging with these new platforms and providing information where people are seeking it.

Jaimee Desai: I agree. I think we need to be better at that, otherwise we will get inundated, or young women who are seeking advice will get inundated by, maybe, poor advice. Yeah, yeah.

Samantha Hawkins: And that's leading nicely on to one of the other questions I was going to ask which is about women's economic empowerment and building the confidence of women. And yes, we've seen so much of these finfluencers and in fact I heard last week that we are losing some female advisors from a slowly growing rank of female advisors who are leaving to become influences. So obviously it is a way of  assisting in the education of women if it's done correctly. But how else do you think we need to address that, that empowerment of women with the confidence in their financial circumstances?

Siobhan Blewitt: I'm passionate about this to the extent that it's about a framework to check. Are you okay? Yeah, it doesn't necessarily mean that its gender based. We get a lot of people that will say where do I start? Yes, I've got super. I think I haven't checked into the statement. I don't know how to log in. What am I looking for? I think I've got some insurance. I've got five credit cards. I might have a number of super balances or industry funds from my jobs over the years. Where do I start? Yeah, Pencil in some time. Diarise. Check your credit card. Check your super balance.

Samantha Hawkins: Yes maybe when you change your smoke alarm battery. When you hear that it’s time to check those things too.

Siobhan Blewitt: It's a framework for it. Health, yeah, and we do it for our physical health, for our financial health. It's useful to check in, yeah.

Jaimee Desai: I think fundamentally, for me, there's two things our industry needs to demystify what advice and what investment management is. I think we love our jargon; we love to overcomplicate things, which can be intimidating, and the last thing we need for women, or of any gender, is to bottom draw financial advice and because we know in the future, it's just going to be quite detrimental. So, I think it's really important for our industry to get rid of some of the jargon or the intimidation that we have around our industry. And secondly and I'm not sure how we solve for this is accessibility. I think good quality, affordable advice, especially post Hayne Commission, is a problem. Yeah, I think it's a problem and I'm not sure how we're going to fix that.

Samantha Hawkins: Yeah, the numbers of advisers is not increasing enough, really, and the cost, right?

Jaimee Desai: Yes cost. If you think, let's just take an example a single mom, just recently divorced, needs some advice. It's too expensive.

Siobhan Blewitt: And that's where the super funds, I think, have a natural opportunity to be useful in the regard of is my asset allocation correct? Yes, how do I Check if my performance is relevant? Some basic things that that seems to be a source of truth and an area that we could enhance and they’re working on that.

Samantha Hawkins: I think recent stats from CoreData show that women are equally seeking financial advice, but their confidence levels are still lacking. I mean, so something for us to think about as to, you know, women's needs in a financial advice. Is the process, the Relationship different?  Are there more educational support requirements which we bring back to your skills? Maybe there's not enough of that supporting the women who are seeking advice to build their confidence up. Even those that are seeking advice, we need to make sure that we're meeting their needs right.?

We might finish with a summary question looking to the future. How do we inspire young women to come into the profession? And how do we encourage women and girls to pursue this career and what would your advice be? I know that you've mentioned a couple of things already, both of you. I'll start Siobhan with you.

Siobhan Blewitt: The firms have to get to the universities. The firms have to go out and talk to the students and the students have to have the opportunity to come into the firms and see are they walking the talk? We need to go and talk to them, and they need to come in and see what it looks like in an office and have the experience. And from a firm perspective, you'll get a whole lot more interesting, fabulous people if you're supporting that cause.

Jaimee Desai: I think, if you're a young person and you're looking to come into our industry, I think for me, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think don't get hindered by our image problem. You'll be pleasantly surprised, I think, firms and advocates in this industry, should you choose to come into it, and in any role, whether it's an advisor, a researcher, technical analysis, whatever it may be, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the advocates within the industry, male and female. And I think this my last, I guess, piece of advice, and I think it's so much inspiring as something that I've learned. We talk about resilience and hard work as building blocks of a career, which, which they absolutely are, but I think don't discount the power of good luck. If you're the benefactor of good fortune or good luck, don't underestimate yourself. Work hard, grab it with both hands and just don't look back.

Samantha Hawkins: I think, sometimes something is presented to you and you have imposter syndrome, and think you don't deserve it, or how did this happen to me? Take advantage of it, correct.

Jaimee Desai: Work hard yes and then it'll be a cycle ou work hard, and the luck will come. Work hard.

Samatha Hawkins: The luck, yes, absolutely and I think from what you both said. Find advocates within the profession Early on in your career is fantastic, but don't underestimate the importance of your hard work and taking control of your career. Do that extra study. Get involved and use those networks and those mentors to help you progress your career.

Siobhan Blewitt: Yes and be patient. You need interminable patience to get when you need to go. Yeah, but keep working.

Samantha Hawkins: I think that's fantastic advice be patient. I really like that. Thank you both so much for coming in and sharing your thoughts and insights. I'm sure that the people that listening to this podcast men and women will have a lot that they can gain from it. And I look forward to seeing you both again soon.

Thanks, thank you, thank you Great.

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